Looking for a GREAT intern in NYC

People, hello: this photogapher is brilliant!!!!! :)))...and funny too (not to mention a “singing fool”, so I’ve heard ;)) )...

Naomi: cant wait to see the new book in August! :))

cheers

bob

p.s. last night, with Mrs. black, in my favorite Toronto book store, I was “thumbing” through the Photography section when my “professional” eye caught a most lush looking and intriguing book: “New Erotic Photography.” As I was “checking out” the book (strickly for aesthetic, professional reasons) when all of a sudden WHOSE PHOTOGRAPHY did i see?????....god damn Naomi! :)))..COOL! :)))...well done! :))

really, no pay? Come on… we can’t do our own like that… leave that up to the stingy editors that are lambasted like sport here when they come looking for free work. tisk tisk.

I’m not looking for people’s two cents or opinions on how internships are bad (not you Bob, thanks for your glowing referral). Just an intern. If you don’t understand the concept of internship and how they actually help a young new photographer grow with on the job training, access to your connections and the ability to get an education without paying a school, then I feel sorry for you. I interned with the Master Bruce Davidson (for lunches), and almost every photographer I know has interned for someone at the early stage of their career.
So let’s leave it at that. This is not an open post to rip me apart nor the value of internships, just a post to FIND an intern who wants to take advantage of my experience and knowledge.
Good day.

well said, naomi.

no, you’re not looking for 2 cents, just two days labor. so you worked for free for a heavy weight and now that you’re big time you can do the same… way to perpetuate the problem. no wonder the industry has an epidemic of free.

I’m with you on this one Naomi. I may seek out an intern myself when I re-locate to London to help me get sorted quickly. I may follow your lead.

Good luck with the book. I’ll be getting a copy.

Paulyman

Naomi, even though i understand your point, and i must say i tend to agree with it (even though is not quite the same then having lectures at the ICP as we both know). Lightstalkers is an open community in which freedom of speech is a fundamental value, your reaction was a bit hard in what concerns listening to other people’s opinion.

All the best and good luck with the intern.

I would do it for lunch but alas I don’t live in NYC. Thanks for the offer.

I’m not trying to be harsh, just realistic. There was a time when Lightstalkers was a community, people helped each other sharing advice and knowledge. As an original member it saddens be to see what it has become, a place to fling mud at one another or get on one’s soap box and preach that others aren’t practicing fair ethics.

Considering Narayan doesn’t know a thing about me or my financial situation it’s really not his place to pass his judgement upon me. Thanks for thinking I’m a “heavy weight” and “big time”, not sure where you got that from. In fact I’m thousands and thousands of dollars in debt for my passion of photography.

As far as being fair, my past interns have nothing to complain about. Last summer I had a great girl from London live with me rent free with meals for 3 months in return for one or two days of work a week. And when there was a paying gig I was able to pay her, as I do with all of my interns. Once they have learned how to assist properly I then make them paid assistants. I also lend my interns equipment to do their own photography and not have to pay to rent gear. Wow, do I take advantage.

Having just returned from yoga, my teacher shared with us a wise quote of Mother Teresa’s which I will now share with all of you: “I am but a pen in the hand of the Lord writing a love letter to the universe.” Let’s treat each other kindly on this site. If we don’t know all the facts, try to learn them first before passing harsh judgements, or better yet, let’s keep our judgements to ourselves.

Now, does anyone want to intern ; )

Let us all work hard to make it again what it once was. Shall we?

I don’t need to know you to not agree with you… I don’t need to know how much debt you have (join the club, btw) or other kinds of perks you offer, though the free room and board is down right philanthropic. I don’t think you are a bad person or immoral or anything like that. I just think it’s a good idea to value someone’s time as you want your time to be valued.

Good luck with the book, I’m sure it will sell fantastically.

I am a bit hung over folks, so bare with me. I hope I dont make a mess of this comment ;))

As some of you might know, i’ve been one of the most vocal and ardent members condemning those magazines/websites/galleries/competitions that do not PAY photographers. I’ve even alienated one of my favorite magazines (Private) and had nearly a coronary when I learned that one of my favorite mags (Mother Jones) wasnt paying photographers for their online photo-of-the-day website (maybe that’s changed by now). However, I also argued (and was called a hypocrite) for supporting VII’s intern program in Paris for the same reason that I just as frustrated with magazines. An internship is a categorically different beast. In fact, the intern actually receives “payment” (and not just talking about lunch here) but that payment is of a different nature. Not “exposure” either, but knowledge, real photographic knowledge. It’s an educational relationship, a feduciary one, not a business relationship (using photographs).

Yes, each person’s time is worthwhile and it would be great if we were all compensated for our time. I give my time, often, freely to students and to other photographers. I’ve shared with many many here (publically and privately) my own experience, my own contacts, my own “techniques” and I havent received a dime from either LS or those whove solicited the info. The dispensation of compensation need not be money/salary.

An intern is an important part of one’s education (and we’re not strickly speaking about photography) for it allows companies, agencies, individuals to offer work experience and knowledge to a person who lacked that or would otherwise HAVE TO PAY FOR IT (ie, college/school). Moreover, it provides and creates a situation for someone (intern) that would otherwise be prohibitive: ie, the student was too young or did not have the knowledge/degree/work experience to “work” for such a company or employer.

Moreover, the same argument (payment) can be made for the company/employer who employs the intern. Why doesnt the intern PAY the company/person for the knowledge/experience/skill they are dispensing: payment for training. For example, in this situation, why doesn’t the young intern PAY Naomi for her knowledge/teaching/time. An intern LEARNS and gains experience (as well, often, as contacts) and insight into a particular profession without having to pay for it (as she would if she were a student in university).

It is part of the understanding of education and craft as a guild: learning from those who know. the “value” is exchange but isn’t reduced to that oxmoronic idea (though essential) of money.

I am a photographer and I think i decent one. I know a great deal about b/w film, light, and a little bit about color, but honestly I dont really know jack shit about using flash, especially with color. Now, I would love to spend some time (including lunches) helping someone (even if i werent a 40 year old photographer) in exchange for them teaching me: how to use flash consistantly and interestingly and well.

when a magazine does not pay a photographer, this is wrong: the photograph/photography is their livlihood. when a young student (or not always young) decides to be an intern, they understand the value of the quid-pro-quo. I bet, even, Naomi would let her intern use her camera: what about that: rent a camera? $$, intern: use of camera, to sight another example.

People abusing interns (it happens and there are many who act apallingly toward their interns, and the photog biz is rife with those bastards) happens but this doesnt reject the idea.

the real consideration of “payment” is about value: the value of offer. I expect that any intern who works with Naomi will get more worth (pedagogically, experientially, photographically) then the same time in the classroom: for which they would have to pay a pretty penny…

it’s important that we distinquish value and not confuse these. That being said, some photogs “pay” their interns, but often this results in the intern feeling more indentured…

If i were a young photographer and had some free time, i’d jump right on this one!

im really in bad shape today (up too late), so i hope that makes sense: if not, shoot me! I wont charge you ;))

cheers
b

I agree with Bob and his comments about photography, although not with his orthography. This, of course, leads inevitably to the question of where does Naomi see naked people and how can the rest of us see them, too.

Akaky: :))))))..

i know, being hung over makes even more of a mess of what already is a usually ripe predilection for orthographic irregularities (I didnt go to a Catholic School ;)) )...

by the way, i’ll do an orthographic internship with you any day my friend :))))...by the way, speaking about litteral orthography: u should see me penmenship….eeee, gads! :))

And As to the question of “how does one go about seeing naked people..” Isn’t that obvious: INTERNSHIP, BABY! :)))

good luck Naomi :))

cheers
running
b

what bob said … plus the fact that apprenticeships are a centuries old practice and traditionally the only way you could learn a trade. as recently as the 1960s in the UK, the norm was for the apprentice to pay the master. maybe not photography, but a lot of the building trades.

when i was 20 i worked for a year as an apprentice luthier and never got paid a bean. worked nights in a ghastly club and built guitars by day. thats what i wanted to do and the only way to do it was for love…

btw, i see naked people too and mostly i wish they’d put their damn clothes on.

very true, David; most naked people do not have the talent necessary to make a go of it; clothing for these folks should be mandatory, with heavy penalties, possibly even jail time, for ignoring the ordinance.

apparently, believing in being paid for one’s work and time is heresy… shame on me for thinking otherwise.

narayan, its not like that. everyone here believes that photographers should be paid for their work; this is a different kind of payment. if you dont think that naomi harris can teach you anything worth learning then this gig is not for you. simple as that.

i get several emails a year from students wanting to do an internship. i’ve never taken one on, but obviously its considered an acceptable route into the biz.

so is it acceptable for a newspaper to expect free labor?

Narayan:

i also believe in being paid for one’s work…but i think you’re confusing 2 different principles: legitimately, you should never take an internship, on principle then because clearly you equate this situation as one of employment. What then, for instance, about volunteerism? If Naomi ask for a “volunteer” would your concern remain?

The treatment of people, the abuse and enfranchising of of someone is one issue, vis-a-vis employment, but we’re talking apples and oranges. Is there abuse in the system: I am certain. Does this viciate the very principled idea behind Internships. No, it does not. What about information? Are you a donator to LS? If not, does this mean you’re also not playing fair since, I am certain, you have benefit from being a member of LS. I donate, does this mean I’m a better member: of course not nor should you have to “pay” to be a member of this community (although donations are nice!). You use of the communities collective knowledge is NOT abused when the members solicit it and do not pay other members: its an acknowledge agreement that the community and members are here to help. That’s the idea that guides an internship: not free labor, but exchange, education, learning, etc.

I understand your very valid concern (abuse of people, using them, employing them as free (slave) labor), but i think what Naomi is offering her intern is not only legitimate and meaningful and beneficial, but more importantly part of the concept of “value”: earning: real earning. While I recongize your concern, I also dont think it is useful either to denegrate what for many is a valued and legitimate relationship. Internship, by the way, IS NOT EMPLOYMENT: but a realtionship constituted upon an agreement, a feduciary relationship, not one from employment.

I should also state for the record that I have been an intern as well (younger days, long long ago): a newspaper, a magazine and a company: not related to photography, but to writing…when i was a young and bright eyed dude, ;).

It was not, at least my experiences, employment nor slavery, but some of the richest and most fun experiences I had during my years in university.

All the best
Respectfully,
Bob

i don’t usually respond to posts here but thought i would put my two-cents in on this one. i have worked with interns for many years (and i interned myself, way back when). i offer lunch and much more—a lot of time editing their work, hiring when possible to work on shoots, introductions to people in the industry, mentoring, and so forth. i give a lot of myself and my time; if there’s no give and take then why would anyone want to be an intern and there are many out there looking.

naomi, you should post at all the photo schools…

- lori grinker

Let me iterate (and I promise, last post):

Naomi is a brilliant photographer and a terrific person (we have mutual friends, though I dont know her personally other than her work):

any person would benefit from this experience, believe me.

cheers
b

i expect it’s up to each individual to decide if Naomi’s offer is worth their while….apart from the free lunches. each intern will have to decide if the parameters of the internship will provide some form of mentoring (for lack of better word) from an established photographer, if it’s a worthwhile add-on to their resume and if it’s a being a ‘shown the ropes’ kind of relationship…and if all that advances their careers. some will accept it as an unpaid opportunity with alacrity and others will pass on it. in essence: it all depends on the intern’s position on their photo career trajectory.

i’m not saying there isn’t value in an internship. Sure, an intern/volunteer might learn a lot about the business… or they might learn about “organize things in the ol’ office.” (and I know, Naomi clarified that in her defense).

But still, is it ok for a newspaper to expect free labor?

I’ll agree with what Tewfic said, if someone thinks that working for free for someone is going to advance their career, than by all means, do so… and I wouldn’t think ill of anyone that does.

And Bob, this was never an attack on Naomi as a person or a photographer (I’m not sure why you are being so defensive about it), and you would be strained to find any such inference in anything I wrote. I simply believe in being paid for work with more than sandwiches and soda. I mean, maybe if it was platters of sushi.

Regardless, good luck in your quest, Naomi. I’m sorry for sending your post in a negative direction.

Let’s just all back off and let this post serve its purpose. Naomi has a point about how LS has lost some of its magic. Lets just hope that she finds someone to help her out and that LS can return to being the amazing service it once was.

I myself caused upset to someone here at LS a couple of years ago and that person has not been a regular poster since then and I am enormously regretful for my part. I apologized publicly and withdrew for a while.

Please, please, please let’s just allow Naomi to find her intern and let us not interfere lest we cause her to lessen her involvement here, for that would be a big loss to all of us. No?

Sorry to carry on. I worked as an assistant for approx 2 years when I first got into photography.

I probably worked for 2 or 3 weeks unpaid lugging around heavy lights and stuff on location. After that I was trusted and my name was passed around. I was eventually paid for my time (not much BTW) and was well respected. I figured from the start that if you do the right thing everything works out well. I worked with architectural photographers most of the time but occasionally went on fashion shoots (sometimes got to see naked girls J) some advertising shoots etc etc. I learned so much from my time assisting and those photographers.

I must admit being out on a job appeals to me more than being an intern in an office but the idea is the same.

Seriously being a lackey is what you make it. Do it with the intention of getting something out of it and it’s rewarding.

We all need to start somewhere.

Good luck on getting the right person Naomi!

BTW I once had to make Tea for over 20 people on a set and I made the biggest mistake. Everyone said I made a great cuppa Tea so whenever a brew was up I was asked to make it.
After about a year another assistant told me to make a shit cup of tea and I’ll never get asked again. Not everything in life has to be perfect!

here is an interesting thought from a photographer

http://www.danheller.com/blog/posts/why-being-photographers-assistant-is.html

bests,

-A

I appreciate all of those who felt the need to defend me, and actually Narayan, I do take your posts as a personal attack. If they weren’t you would have dropped it by now.

Dude, you live in Turkey. You aren’t looking to even intern. Why bother reading my post. What did you expect to get out of it. Absolutely everything you wrote here is of a complete negative position. Yes as a matter of fact I do feed my interns sushi. Sometimes we get thai. I’ve even been known to take them out for steak. How is this of any importance? Why the frick is the topic of newspapers even being brought up here? And you know what, only a small portion of being a photographer is being on shoots. A heck of a lot more is conducted in the office.

I didn’t clarify anything in my defense. If you care to quote me, do so correctly. In my original post I did say “to help organize things in the ol’ office.” I went on to say “Need to be able to do photoshop” which in my mind shows it’s more responsibility than licking stamps. I kept my post short and sweet, if that interests someone to contact me and actually ask for more details then great. I didn’t feel I need to list every duty.

I think you have way too much time on your hands. Maybe you should consider taking an internship.

For the future. I think if one has nothing productive or nice to say, just keep it to yourself. It is true that I will now think twice before I ask for help or give out advice. By the way, to the poster who was asking for the contact info for the photo editor of Food & Wine the other day, since I gave it to you I expect a check in the mail.

The subject is now closed. If you’ll excuse me, I have a bed full of money to go roll around in naked while being fanned by one intern as the other peels me a grape.

you should have posted: “intern wanted, please email me with your details.” LS is toxic and should be approached with caution.

My point about working for newspapers was pretty clear… Few people will say that it is right for a newspaper to not pay an intern… so how is it right that a photographer not pay an intern? And don’t tell me it’s different because it’s not, either way an intern contributes to producing a product that earns revenue.(period)

why care? Why care if someone is giving photos to magazines for free or doing assignments for nothing? Why care than about 99cent stock photos and the like?

No, I’m not looking for an internship, but I think that just because not paying an intern was the way it has always been isn’t a good enough excuse not to do it still.

,,The subject is now closed. If you’ll excuse me, I have a bed full of money to go roll around in naked while being fanned by one intern as the other peels me a grape.’‘

wahahahaha Naomi you just made my day :)

I am a working photographer in New York City. I can trace almost all of my contacts, connections, and opened doors back to my very first internships with Magnum for 3 days a week, and Burt Glinn for 2 days a week. Both were paid in lunches, and an enormous amount of knowledge and experience.

i can count cash and peel one hell of a grape (fast too)....other than that i’m useless.

Ed Can you peel sour grapes as well.

There is a lot of negativity here on both sides
of the fence.

sour grapes, sweet grapes, red grapes, green grapes…don’t matter to me. once the wheels are in motion there’s grape skins everywhere.

I loved being an intern, frankly. It was possibly the best time in my professional career: I worked with the best in the field, who lent it integrity, got to see and hear things I never would have otherwise, lived very very cheaply which is really a test in creativity, and got to imagine an incredible future. Interning gives the best in the field a humility that keeps them sharp, pushing envelopes, and giving time and knowledge to the next set. It might seem a little cheap to someone whose never done it, but I wouldn’t replace those days for anything.
btw, I’m not a photographer, my internship was in a classroom learning to teach….unpaid for a year and then underpaid but thankfully fulfilled. I’d be surprised if it wasn’t a vital part of becoming expert in any field. Rewards don’t always come in the form of bills and coins…otherwise we’d be paying our kids to come to school. Knowing an internship is temporary, the reward is the experience. I hope you find someone who appreciates that with eyes, heart, and mind open.