More large format questions

E… Just put black tape on the ground glass to make it 4×4. That way you’ll see a square in camera. Yes I’ve had view camera experience but never have seen anything square. :)

but how to make only the square expose on the neg too?

I hear what you are saying but don’t understand the reason.I have seen view camera backs that will will mask out half of the film so you can shoot 2 shots on one sheet. But square…nope? Could be wrong but can’t remember ever seeing or hearing what you’re talking about. Then there might be a custom made thingie but that could be big bucks. Call Lens and Repro for a possible answer. Whatever! :) I’ll PM you with the name and phone number of the photog I used to share space with. Old school and lots of large format experience. Good luck.

hi – the reason – I’d just rather avoid cropping after the fact – so if there isn’t a way to shoot it square, I’d rather shoot it 4×5..thanks for the info

All you’d need would be a mask in front of the film holder. You could print up a 4×4 mask with an inkjet printer then place this over the holder. The frame edge may be a bit soft since it’s not in direct contact with the film however.

If you weren’t shooting a lot, you could even try slipping the mask right next to the film in the holder but the rails might be a bit tight fit when you load the film.

Of course, you’d have to mark off the position of the 4×4 mask on the ground glass.

If you’re looking for movements, have you thought about the fuji gx680 ?

Adapt. Work within the constraints of the chosen medium. That’s half the fun. You will grow. You might run back to the comforts of your Rollei, but you will have evolved.

Fred, something like this, but with the bigger opening? http://cgi.ebay.com/SINAR-4X5-VIEWFINDER-MASKS-4-SIZES-MINT-COND-NO-RSRV_W0QQitemZ120256274057QQihZ002QQcategoryZ107928QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
So only the 4×4 would show up on the negative?

Hey Jethro..it’s the quality of the larger neg I am after, not necessarily a new format. I choose large format square..so it may have to adapt to me! (so I think the fuji gx680 is ou, neg not big enough)

As far as i can tell, I want a field camera that can take at least as long as 210, with at least front tilt/lift and no monorail..

E…Are those Sinar masks just creating a frame on the ground glass (expensive black tape)or actually masking the film? You need something in front of the film which I think you won’t get. You’re not giving yourself any breathing room with the way you’re thinking.

I don’t know where they go, just wondering? No breathing room meaning what? A mask could screw up the film?

What do you make of this baby? Seems to have some of the ease of the Crown G with more options for extension and tilt/swing..BTW, I’d be doing portraits on a tripod, in the outdoors

http://cgi.ebay.com/4×5-Metal-Field-Camera-Revolving-Back-Complete-Extras_W0QQitemZ190219285814QQihZ009QQcategoryZ107927QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That’s the general idea but they’re made for Sinar. All you really is something with a 4×4 hole over the film. Put a couple of Hassy notches on one side even ;)

Still, a lot depends on how defined an edge you want around the image. If you’re wanting a sharp border, then you’re going to have to mask off directly over the film I would think. If a bit of fuzziness is fine, a mask over the holder would work. I’d personally go for the sharp edges.

...goes off to look at one of his 4×5 holders…

What would work as well, if you can live with a slightly smaller than 4×4 frame, you could sacrifice a darkslide and cut a square into that. This way, all you would need would be the one sq slide that would be inserted into the holder for the exposure. Similar idea to cutting down an 8×10 slide to give you 2 4×10 shots on a single sheet of 8×10 film.

Or you could cut off a straight edge of a slide and just insert it part way giving you a sq image. This is probably the simplest way I’m now thinking. Just measure off how far to insert the slide and yer good to go.

God that was a round about way to answer your question..

very cool..are there some cameras (4×5) that won’t trigger with a dark slide inserted?

Unless I am very stupidly mistaken, the answer is No. There is no mechanism that tells any large format camera if the dark slide is in or out.

Erica Sez; “I’d just rather avoid cropping after the fact – so if there isn’t a way to shoot it square, I’d rather shoot it 4×5..thanks for the info”...

I just refurbed a Linhof 4×5 that had a piece of mount board glued into the corner of the film aperture (under the back/groundglass)... which created a black corner, on the negative, at exposure… so that the original owner of the camera could scratch an ID for the negative directly onto the negative.

You could do the same, with some sort of metal or plastic… or even mount board!!

Greg.

Best way is to make an aperture with a 4×4 hole and mount it just inside of the camera as close as possible to the film plane. How and where to mount it will depend on your camera. And the edges of the frame might be a tad soft, since the aperture you create will not be resting right against the film plane. This would only be a problem if you intend to print full frame. I would use plastic or metal, since it would be easier to clean than matt board, which I would think might attract (or create) dust, which is a big enemy of large format shooters. (Dust on your film creates black spots on a print, which are ugly.)

As others have mentioned, if you want a sharply-defined frame then you’ll need your mask to be right up against the film, so using a darkslide with a hole cut in it is your best bet. You can usually find darkslides for sale seperately…one problem is that you’ll have to mark the cut darkslide somehow so you don’t remove the holder from the camera thinking it’s a regular uncut slide, which would expose your film.

Large format cameras will shoot no matter what. They’ll shoot without film holders, or with darkslides, etc. In fact a common newbie mistake is to forget to pull the darkslide out when you shoot, which of course means you’ll get no images on your film. The other common mistake is to forget to put the darkslide back in before removing the holder, which ruins your film.

If you’re intending to print full frame showing the edge of the image, you’ll neet to make sure your darkslide or mask is cut extremely well, or it won’t look very good. Even small errors in the cutting of the mask will show up in an enlargement.

I would just crop, use the native format or get a ‘blad.

Greg, was the border soft or sharp on the neg..or did you never see the results? thanks!

I was hoping that perhaps there would be a Gowlandflex that would meet your needs, but perhaps not. Anyway, it’s an interesting bunch of cameras worth looking at.

John, I am going to have to obsess about the Gowandflex now! See that Rollei H2O housing too?

Okay..any thought on this baby? Seems like it may be good..are there limitations on brands of lenses i can get if I want a 210 or so?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190219285814&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=009

13” (325 mm) of bellows could/will be tight for extreme closeups if you use a 210 lens if this is your style. You may also need an adapter if you want to fire flashes or PW’s. The sync looks like a bipost. Shouldn’t be hard to find an adapter.No probs with lenses as long as the boards are standard sized ie: 0,1,or 3.

I prefer wood fields for aesthetics and weight.

Is that your question to the seller ?

Yes it is.. he said up to 300 I think..you think even 210 is pushing it?

What does this guy mean in response to my creating a square question? (Yes, I’m 2-timing on ya’ll with photonet..was feeling impatient last night, my apologies)

“How about a splitter board type set up similar to what 8×10 shooters use to shoot 4×10 or 5×8. Get a piece of 1/4”mdf cut to the dimensions slightly larger than the opening in your camera backs height and appropriate + or – 1” width, notch the edges on a table saw so it fits snug onto the inside of the camera back. Push it on the back and put the back on the camera. Voila, square masked ground glass, square neg, and no film fogged darkslide errors.”

210 wouldn’t be pushing it as long as you’re not wanting to do very tight closeups. A 300 would pretty well be infinity give or take. As for the lens, one can do the math to figure out how close you can get but I can put a 210 on my camera and see what 13” will give you. I think the simple bit was double the focal length for 1:1 ? If you don’t plan to do very tight heads, it’s probably fine.

Splitter boards were that, they split the opening in half.It’s something that Deardorff cameras used and they allow several frames on one sheet ie: two 4×10 or 5×8 frames on an 8×10 sheet of film. He/she is suggesting making a wooden mask that would stay in the camera. Seems like a bit of work but ymmv.

I’d go with a modified darkslide instead if it was me. Another advantage of a darkslide with a square cut out in the middle of the slide is that it puts the image in the centre of the image circle/sweet spot of the lens. This will also allow more extreme movements before seeing vignetting.

For me it boils down to what kind of frame edge you want. I’d want as sharp a border as possible so that means getting the mask as close to the film as possible.

If you want to focus a 210mm lens at infinity you’ll need 210mm (8.25in) of bellows extension. To focus closer, you need more extension. At 1:1 (macro) you would need 420mm (16.5) of extension with a 210mm lens. So you won’t have enough for that with the B&J but you would be able to get reasonably close. I’m sure if you check a view camera book you can find the formula (probably a good idea before you start spending money), but I believe you’d be able to focus to around three feet, which would get you a nice portrait but not a super-tight detail.

I wouldn’t stick MDF in the camera for the dust reasons I mentioned above (at least if you ever want to make wet prints, for scanning you can always remove the dust). And that method won’t get you a nice sharp border. If you want an in-camera mask, I’d get some black styrene or other plastic.

The darkslide idea is definitely easiest. You can do two methods—the first is to cut a darkslide with a hole. This means that you will use the central “sweet spot” of the lens but your frame will be a bit smaller than 4×4, since you need to leave some darkslide remaining around each edge.

Your other option is to cut a darkslide straight across so about an inch of it extends to cover the top of the film in the holder. This way you could actually get a 4×4 image, but it would be at the bottom of the holder since your modified slide would cover the top inch of film only. This means you wouldn’t be using the central portion of the lens’ coverage. Of course you can compensate for this with camera movements, you’d just need to use a bit of front drop or rear rise to get things evened out. But with a 210mm lens, you’ll have plenty of coverage to play with so I’m sure you won’t notice that you’re not using the absolute center of the lens.

The latter would be my choice, for a couple of reasons but mainly because it’s easier to get a straight clean cut on the darkslide if you’re cutting across it than it is to cut a perfect square hole. And because I think using all of the available film width is more important than using the center of the lens coverage. If you’re considering cutting a 3.5×3.5 hole in a darkslide, is it really worth the trouble and expense of large format when you could shoot 2.25×2.25 rollfilm?

If you do use a modified darkslide, I would suggest painting the little tab on top with a bright color, so you know it’s the modified slide and not a real one and don’t accidentaly expose your film. And you’ll still need to mask your groundglass with tape or marker.

Just did a very qwik and dirty setup and my 210 with 13” +/-, between film plane and lens shutter gets you a pretty tight closeup, probably closer than you might want, but it’s there.

Worth considering what Noah and others suggest about lf vs mf. The gain in terms of quality is not going to be that noticeable imo. If it’s a matter of the relationship between you and your subjects, can’t help you there but I understand why one might want to go lf since it slows things down a lot which might be what you’re after.

Just to clarify, I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from trying lf, I think everyone should give it a try at some point—just that if you end up cropping too much it it doesn’t make as much sense.

The process will slow you down and force you to think about what you want and that’s why it’s worthwhile.

Okay..off and running about the square issue. thank you..

To be clear about lens choice and bellows extension..what would be the OPTIMAL combo of the 2 if I want the option to shoot tight heads? many thanks

(but I think you are saying I’d be ok with the 13” bellows and a 210 for less tight close ups)

Like so, on the right..possibly was 8×10 but still, for comparison, if it had been 4×5, what lens/bellows length?

My Fuji 210,at approx 13” +/- draw fills the ground glass (long side) with something about 8” in height so I’d think a tight shot like Chet will be doable. I’d take the 210 if you wanted bit less DOF than a 150 or so.

If you’re a lf noobie, I have some expired film (‘07) if you want to play around without dishing out on fresh film. Postage or if you know someone here for the Magnum ws, they can be your personal courier. Maybe Jonathan from Magnum if he’s still here ?

thank you so much fred, and a wonderful offer, I accept..if you mean McBride, I don’t think he’d mind at all, should i try to reach him or might you bump into him? Or postage too, of course, whatever turns out to be easiest for you.

What 4×5 camera do you shoot with? Or just a straight up recommendation of what i should buy for around 1,000 US including one lens..

I think that could have been the name. Youngish blonde guy shoots Mamiya 7 ? Bumped into him at the Drake Hotel where the Magnum exhibit is, I was on assignment there and had my 7II with me which led him to ask where to find sync cords etc. Very nice guy and I’m sorry I missed the opening that evening.

I didn’t get his contact and not sure if I’ll bump into him again although a colleague is doing a ws with Anderson so who knows. If you could give him a heads up and see if we are talking about the same fellow that would be cool.

Film is Forté which is no longer.

I have Zone VI in 4×5 and 8×10. If you want light, something like a Wista or Tachihara would be nice but the bellows is only 12”. Shen Hao’s are also very popular and they have tons of movements. Badgergraphic.com is one source for Shens. Your budget should give you lots of room to look around.Holders are easy to come by as well especially if you decide to hack one of the darkslides ;) Maybe poke around Keh.com to see what they have as well.

I would have wondered about the FUji GX680 series too, but like you, I long for that large neg. 4×4” sounds an awesome format to work with. Can’t wait to see what you achieve with it, having seen what you have achieved so far in you folio on Lightstalkers. Any news about that forthcoming web site of yours Erica?

Fred..maybe it is easier if I send you some $$ for shipping..would you mind sending me a where/how?

Caz – thanks :).. I am (god willing) days away from sending out the url for the first round of eyes for feedback. I have more I wanted to do, but I guess at some point you just have to jump!

I think I am now leaning toward the Zone V1..after hearing that Fred uses it, I had a talk with the guy at Midwest Camera, and it seems like it may be the way to go..though no money has been laid down. But as I read in another forum “it’s a camera not a rocket” so i should just make sure I have enough bellows extension, it’s light enough to shlep and I should leap. All this talk of jumping so early in the am…

Keep in mind there were several iterations of the Zone VI camera. The early ones were made by Wista/ Tachihara and only move the front standard. I still have one (but not Zone VI branded) and it is very light for travel. The Z VI that is my go to 4×5 is a triple bed with bail back. Works like a champ but not as light at the Wista.

I’ll pm my contact info Erica.

Erica,

sent you a pm, if it didn’t make it to you, shoot me an email with your contact

Just got it, sent you an email..thanks!

How goes it with the web site? Still coming soon, I see. Looking forward…

any day now!