The Leica M8 - A Mistake?

Sorry but I think that you are a bit mixing apples with oranges. The M8 is supposed to be a rangefinder, so no comparison with SRLs. The M8 is also supposed to be what a lot of people were asking: a digital M. If in the digital world the M8 will be able to serve the same scope that the former Ms served in the film domain remains to be seen. A full frame sensor is not technically possible at the moment in a rangefinder camera, at least without giving up on the dimensions of the Leica M. To me the camera looks very promising, actually exciting, but the most important test, the quality of files, has still to come. And, yes, it is expensive, but Leicas have always been.

My two cents, Giulio

agreed, its a expensive toy for those who have loads of spare cabbage each month.

I doubt they are aiming this at the pro level, I mean if we take Martin’s recent issue with sweat, this thing looks really fragile. I love my 1dmkII, its like a WWII tank and still worked after being dropped in the sea this week and full of sand.

Doubtful the M8 would even operate with light mist falling on it

*though i’d still have one if given half the chance

Asim,

I’m in almost total agreement with you except that I feel the R line,effectively, is dead and gone and has been for many years.
I think,as you noted,that Leica design ideas,were too heavily influenced by the vocal,old guard (and I don’t
mean veteran photographers who earned the livliehooad at one point with ’M’s")

The M8 will no doubt be an excellent,possibly flawed, tool that missed an opportunity to set itself higher up the totem pole
instead of coming in as a ‘pretty’, 10Mp digital camera using some of the best optics available.

They will,no doubt sell boatloads of M8’s and a local Leica rep recently suggested that most of the first two years production capacity is
already accounted for so,perhaps,this infusion of cash into Leica will allow them to develop,further,the ideal ‘M’.

Anyone tried out a test M8 yet? J

Well I suppose, its for the sake of the M series being digitally compatible.
It makes not much sense to have a sensor that’s not 100% coverage if its a rangefinder, besides, what’s the best quality of the M Line lenses? Its the low distortion and honest transmission of light onto film; and that film sports a certain agility in capturing light, as compared to a CCD sensor. It doesn’t make sense to sport a 1.33x magnification factor. For the sake of M8 being silent, I believe digital compacts now can be so silent that the M8 shutter would sound like a manual typewriter compared to a digital compact…

i write as a photographer whose primary cameras are Leica M film cameras. as many people here know i am generally totally anti-digital. But i am excited about this camera, for several reasons:

“i would have invested in updated my lenses i.e. matching autofocus with leica glass, on a professionally robust, leica quality digital SLR that modernized the company, the product line, and allowed it to play in the largest, and fastest growing market segment today i.e. near professional digital SLR market at 10+MP or more.”

Who do you think you’re kidding?? who is going to make a digital SLR better than Canon, Nikon, or even Olympus?
The very thing we’ve been missing is a decent TRUE rangefinder digital. The Epson RD-1 was way too expensive for what it is. All point-and-shoots, while adequate for some jobs, are garbage compared to a Leica M. SO, this is EXACTLY the best thing for Leica to be doing; frankly they should have gone to market much faster.

It’s not just Leica’s lenses that are good; it’s the design of the body. The M camera body is easily one of the best feeling cameras in the hand, and keeping it true M manual focus is the best choice, because, yes, there are still photographers who hate auto-focusing and will always prefer a bright rangefinder over an auto-focusing unit searching…

And the price, while high now, will surely come down, especially as this will spur Epson/Cosina/Voigtlander to respond with a newer, cheaper, better RD. it may even encourage other companies (Cosina/Zeiss? Sony/Konica/Minolta?) to come out with M-mount rangefinder digitals. Also the price IS somewhat competitive with the high end Canon and Nikon offerings. However somebody needs to compete with the Nikon D200/Canon 5d/30d level.

THERE is NO copyright on the Leica M mount any more. So anyone can make a camera for it.

And 1.33 isn’t full frame but it’s MUCH better than 1.5! and forget your $2500 lenses…at the wide end you can get Cosina/Voigtlander’s 15mm for $350 and that becomes a 20mm. Get a 21mm and that’s a very usable 28mm. You can even get a used Leica 21mm for $1000 or $1200. that’s not bad at all, considering.

So no, i’m not going to go out and buy one. I’ll wait until Epson makes a $1500 RD-2, or something like that. but this is a step in the right direction for a venerable company to survive. Much better, for instance than Contax/Yasica’s entire failed foray into auto-focus and digital. They would have been wise to simplify the cameras, maintain the great lenses.

Finally, the rangefinder market is small but not diminishing. I think Cosina has surprised even themselves with the relative success of the Voigtlander line, and we’ll see how well the Zeiss collaboration goes. And when you see “wannabe” rangefinders like the Olympus C-7070 going for almost twice their original price after they’ve been discontinued (i know, i just sold one) - you must acknowledge that there IS a market for non-SLR cameras -

Well as you mentioned, Alan, I’m sure, you don’t need superior glass for digital images like you need for film, any decent glass will do, so anyone could make lenses in M mounts.

Believe it or not, I can’t wait to put my hands on it.

Isn’t that what Zeiss is doing now, making great lenses with a M-mount?

I kind of lean toward Alan’s thinking on this one, though I believe that Asim raises some good points. I have to say I was loving my c7070 but it was not a tough machine and it was slow writing RAW as well. But the flip out LCD monitor was a great virtue, and while it was still alive and kicking I was enjoying its use and wondering whether some company could come along one day and build a little point and shoot like this, retaining its virtues while jettisoning the amateur stuff and making it a lean mean tough machine. So in a way I think Asiim is right: one of these companies might just make the leap and entirely redesign the concept of the digital camera. But I also have to say that this particular camera’s appearance heartens me and I hope like Alan that it will spur more effort on the part of these companies to produce affordable rangefinder digitals. I would happily shoot with this one for all the occasions on which I normally shoot digital. I dont mind the crop factor, though of course I am loath to shell out for the lens that is meant to go with this camera. My wonderful 28 will end up giving me 37, not bad but not what I want, but as Alan points out there are other lenses available. Anyway, unless Leica by some miracle gives me one of these things for free there is no way I am ever going to own one, so it is all just talk. But one day we may see more such cameras on the market for reasonable prices and then I think I might become more of a digital enthusiast.

As I said in the other post, its a Leica – Late, under spec and overpriced……Having held the M8, I just can’t help feeling they haven’t quite nailed this – and god, they have had long enough for R&D ! To me, it didn’t feel as robust as the film M’s, and for sure, the shutter is louder than the M7 and way more than the 6 etc…I think they also missed a great feature of the RD-1 – turning that screen around, so I guess everyone will still be ‘chimping’ – nothing that gaffer tape can’t fix mind you…..I’m sure the files will be good – just small….Great! Canon must be laughing (actually they are! having talked to them in Perps). And with the recent sale of shares in Leica, I really wouldn’t place my confidence in this camera saving Leica’s bacon…..I’m sure I’ll have one and stick it in the bag, but in terms of ‘crossing over’, I think I’ll wait for the M10 and when they do finally stop making Tri-X……..

Anybody nothice in yesterday’s paper (I read it in the International Herald tribune on the plane) the story about Hermes selling its stckholdings in Leica to the Austrian company that controls the board now. Here it is: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/14/bloomberg/bxleica.php

Leica had lost 30 million Euros since 2003. It seems to me that it had better do something fairly important to reach the digital market or it will soon be history. I thought perhaps its partnership with Panansonic might lead it there, but the Lumix/Leica cameras, while interesting, don’t seem to have taken off.

Now, if they could clone the Olympus C-7070 as a more solid rangefinder, they might have something…at least a stronger starting point for serious movemement.

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying about the sale of shares……and I just don’t think this M8 is ‘big enough’ to fend off the wolfs at the door….If Leica hadn’t been so stubborn and worked ‘with’ Epson as they wanted, they – and we – might have the perfect digital rangefinder…..

Leica has not been a technological innovator of any kind since the introduction of the M3 in 1954. They lost out to the Nikon F and the SLR revolution, losing hosts of photojournalist users in the 1960s — why? — among other reasons, because they didn’t have a built-in meter and a motor drive. It took them until the M6 in the early 1980s to come out with the light meter, and until 1999 to come out with the decent (as opposed to previously clunky) motor-drive.

All of the innovation in the M mount in recent years has come from Cosina/Voigtlander and its collaborations with Zeiss, with Epson. Also from Konica with the Hexar RF, a camera which would have been an excellent jumping off point for a digital version. But Konica got folded into Minolta which is now folded into Sony. Forget about that.

Leica’s one great new product of recent years is not the M7 (auto-exposure is kind of bypassed when the majority of current Leica users have gone back to B+W film, who needs a light meter?!?) but the 28mm f/2/0 Summicron lens, easily one of the best lenses made for any camera. Their long lasting “classic” M6 was abandoned for the useless TTL models, for the M7, for the retro and overpriced MP.

Like a lot of actual Leica users, I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT ANY LEICA NEW, everything I have was purchased on the used market! Therefore, although most of my income has come through use of their products, they have never directly made one dollar from me. And that is a very problemmatic business model, if you fail to profit from your users.

It’s doubtful of course if either the M8 or the Panasonic collaboration alone can do enough for them. But, as I wrote above, it does really get the ball rolling. It really does keep the lens mount alive. It is the theory that more competition benefits all the competitors, not just takes one part of the market from one company to another. Arguably Cosina and Konica have increased, rather than decrease, sales and interest in Leicas, rather than just take away a percentage. If anyone should buy those shares that Hermes sold it should be Cosina.

Finally, it comes down to price. If the M8 were $1500 or even $2500 rather than $4500, the line would go around the block of photographers lining up to buy them. That’s where Cosina/Voigtlander had the right idea, introducing a whole line of affordable rangefinders and thus getting them into the hands of a new generation. That’s why I’m looking more to them to get the whole digital-rangefinder concept a reality. Now they have more motivation.

Alan, thank you for your thoughts and words. I’m with you totally on the Leica M8. I did hold, aimed and fired it in Perpignan and I think it will make agreat tool. But seriously I like the pressure the M8 produces on the market. And as I posted before on another thread, if the M8 is a success, it will encourage others to produce digital rangefinders (Zeiss? Voigtländer? Hexar digital?) at a lower price point.

About the 10MP. Who of you guys out there actually needs more than that? For your daily work? How many double spreads in a magazine did you have? What files did they come of? Canon 1D with 8 MP or Canon Eos 20D with 6 MP? Just a point to think of.

Anyway, as soon as the camera will be available, erverybody who likes to should take a test run on it and then decide for themselves.

Regrds

Another Leica user agrees with Alan. I have never purchased a new anything from Leica either. Cosina/Voigthlander have done a pretty good job. Look at Leicas new prices on film bodies and lenses. Out of my range. Glad I bought years ago and used. $4700 buys a lot of Tri-x and D-76.

Well if we are going to get into stories about how we acquired our leicas: my first was a double stroke M3 in excellent condition but it did need some factory refurbishing. It was found in an old ladies’ closet in a pillow case filled with old rangefinders. She gave them all to my brother, her neighbor, who then gave the M3 to me. My M4P I bought second hand from Tamarkin for a good low price. My M6 I bought at a significantly reduced price as well, brand new, from Ken Hanson: a doctor had bought it just a few days previously and returned it immediately to the store, deciding I guess that he didnt really like or need a rangefinder.

So far all I have heard against the M8 technical-wise sounds like carping. I havent seen it yet, so I cannot say, but it looks like a pretty good piece of hardware. The problem is in the price. Canon may well be laughing, and I dont know if this thing will have any economic benefits for Leica itself, but I think it will prove that there is a market out there for these cameras and more are going to follow.

Despite many technical and market discussions, I must say a “Digital M” can be one of the best things that ever apeared in the market for me. I don’t know how many people thinks the same or if their situation on the market will get better after this but:

No turning back; nowadays I shoot digital. It’s great in many ways but it’s also a pain in many others. What I really miss for doing my things are: discrete and small high quality cameras. Sorry but still haven’t found a digital point and shoots that will do. Besides of my big DSLRs, I need cameras that I will be able to carry, use and still have great quality images in places like the top of Mount Everest or in the middle of the Favelas in Rio de Janeiro. Sometimes you don’t want or can’t afford to take big cameras. This generation of digital cameras is yet to be born, just as a perfect DSLR (that handles highlights better) is. The Leica M8 seems like a great step forward in this respect and I doesn’t compete or replaces DSLRs or point and shoots…

I think that when I have the money and the time is right, I’ll be probably buying one…

Cheers

My 2c:

I had the opportunity to play with it a little in Perpignan and all I can say is that this baby feels good…looks good, and is well built; pricewise it is about half the price of a EOS1DSMkII and 50% more than a EOS 5D…not so badly priced after all when you consider the price of a M7 or MP relative to other film bodies. I bought my first Leica for 100$ back in 1980 ( a semi derelict IIIc) but my first serious Leica investment was in a 1965 M2 with 50mm summicron for 350$ in 1983…well, if you look on my DRR archive, the drought in Africa and the Angola aftermath pictures from 2006 were shot with that camera…41 years old and just the finest tool ever!!!…I could sell all my cameras but never ever my M2…all this to say that the only real issue with the M8 will be the quality of the pictures it produces and even more specifically, the way it handles noise at high ISO. If that camera is able to produce clean high ISO pictures, it will effortlessy become a “classic”.

Agreed Theo, which is why I mentioned the c7070: it would benice to have digital cameras with these design features but hardier and more professional. The c7070 was ergonomically about perfect. Discrete, quiet and the moveable monitor a real advantage.

Bruno mentions a good point too: the noise levels. Leica specifically states that it chose a CCD sensor for its superior low noise levels. I am waiting to see a report on this.

There will no doubt be more of these right soon, but Jean-marie Antoine has posted the first test essay on a separate thread. Click here

Yep!

Good highlight handling, sharp images, wiiiiiiide angle and manageable noise is all I need fitted under a small and robust package!
Don’t really care much about the rest… I hope they got it right.

Well according to the article I just posted I would say they got most of it right, but there are a few problems. The noise at ISOs above 1250 is not great. Canon outdoes them but if I understand correctly Canon’s CMO sensor on this matter outdoes everyone. The Canon also beats Leica in terms of high resolution, but not by much. The Leica enables you to shoot 10 RAW in a row at about 2 per second, which again is beat by Canon, but again not significantly.

I tell you, I like the look of this overall. I wish they had created a moveable LCD on the back though. That would have been neat, though not necessary.

I suppose if you absolutely need a digital rangefinder here you have one…..but since the sensor is no improvement over Canon, and the resolution is less than the 5D, and the reviewer has stated that there is a slight delay in the operation of the shutter as well, I will put this camera in the “doctors and lawyers” category.

I totally agree with you guys when you compare the benefits of a Canon or Nikon top of the line DSLRs to the Leica M8, but I really don’t thint that’s a very fair or needed comparison.

It is like comparing a DSLR to a medium format back. They have different purposes and are better suited for different situations as well. A digital rangefinder, at least for me, isn’t supposed to take the place of my trusty SLR cameras, it is supposed to fill other gaps.

I believe there is no perfect camera or type of camera for everyone or every situation, just as there isn’t a perfect camera bag for every situation. SLRs are great and I would hardly leave them for a rangefinder, specially when shooting action, but for some situations, the later or even a point and shoot are definitely much better suited.

That said, I believe we should be judging the M8 and other cameras, thinking whether they are good enough or great for the purpose they are made for, and not to be looking at them skeptically expecting them to solve, improve or excel other categories of equipment.

By the way, I would love to see someday a Digital Hasselblad XPan and a Digital Nikonus!!!! Of course, I wouldn’t expect them to excel top DSLR at what they are good at…

Cheers!

Theo

my lower back will be thankful to leica when they ll produce a really good digital rangefinder. and im 28 years old!!! i just cant see why my camera bag weighs more than 50 pounds when im travelling. and there s only 2 1D bodies, a few lenses and a powerbook in there.

rangefinders and SLRs have always been uncomparable. different cameras for different needs.
but nowadays how many shooters are forced to use DSLRs just because of the need to shoot digital?

having the possibility of chosing again is gonna be fantastic.
leica, make it happen!!!!!
i dont think any other company besides them will ever invest seriosly on digital rangefinders. we ll have to keep on praying that they ll come up with something magical again.

What about that nifty little Canon G7 that has just appeared. May satisfy frustrated ex-C7070 users. I have my eye on one. Doesn’t shoot raw but who cares. It’s 10 meg too.

well then, there is the panasonic new version of the DCM L1. i bought one used and my friend that sold it to me ( an amazing leica m user ) gave me an external voigtlanger 28mm viewfinder to mount on the hot shoe which partially solves the problem of looking through a possible annoying tv screen instead of the real world with some glass inbetween.

I was gonna mention the G7, but my post disappeared…

http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/psg7/index-sam-e.html

You can get a wideangle adaptor for it as well, then just stick a Voightlander viewfinder on it:

http://www.cameraquest.com/voigtacc.htm

Nice! The G7 is about 600 bucks apparently, gives ya a 28.5 MB file, and has IS, so will work in very low light.

Compared to…7 grand for a glorified compact with an average imaging chip?

If you insist on having the ‘red dot’, you can always get this instead:

http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/cassidy/leica-h/

It has cutting edge ‘auto-burn’ and ‘s-vignette’ technology.

I think the G7 doens’t shoot RAW. And I guess, like its predecessors it has an extremely annoying response time, taking the picture way too long after you pressed the button.

Cameras are like cars: sometimes you’re not reasonable when buying one but what a pleasure it is to be unreasonable sometimes…

This is quite interesting. I would think Leica would lover the price of the M8 after some months. But I could be wrong. The DMR digital back is still the same price.

You can read more about the M8 at the Leica forum:
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-m-m8-release/5217-leica-announcement-new-leica-products-leica.html

Too expensive. What’s the financial return on a $5000 camera body (plus $1500 for another lens to get 28mm) if you are (almost by definition) not shooting studio, fashion, daily, paparazzi, or some other highly paid photo specialty? I think they’ve totally left the professional market and gone for the high-fashion market, just as a fancy sports car isn’t really for anyone who might actually have to drive fast.

It just seems dumb not to build a new rangefinder camera, the Leica N; don’t adapt the old lenses, which are the reason they can’t use standard CMOS chips in the first place. Create new, cheaper, smaller lenses. Don’t you think, O Leica People, that I’d rather get new, smaller matched lenses than pay the same amount to force my old gear to do something it wasn’t designed to do?

Frankly, I don’t need a Leica; I use a Hexar RF, also. I just want (a) small camera (b) manual controls © a view finder where I see more than just the image my camera will take.

Finally, my invective to Leica: get competitive, unless you want to be nothing more than a strange, overpriced dinosaur. The Leica got its reputation because good (not rich) photographers used their cameras.

David,
You might want to have a look at their Digilux 3 though not small as the M. But not large as a dSLR either.

The digilux 3 is an SLR; there’s a particular closeness one feels with a viewfinder, where you’re essentially snatching a crop from reality, rather than searching for an image. That’s what I like about the ranger finder camera, plus the small size doesn’t scare subjects. So, there really is a difference between SLR and smaller viewfinder cameras.

I understand you.

Coem to think of it, you might want to read this ongoing discussion in the Leica forum where some have mounted viewfinders on top of small digital cameras. Not only is it compact, it is also economical.

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/6645-there-small-camera-has-following.html

Will somebody from Leica please come forward and let’s all test drive the M8! I hope it runs on regular gas. :) Joe

Hello you all,

everybody is mourning about the price of the M8, but if you charge your clients a flat rate of 80 Euros per day for using digital equipment, like I do, and you shoot at least 10 days per month, you will have your clients pay for your new toy in less than 7 months to be exact 6,25 months. I assume a total price of 5000 Euro for Body and one lens.

Doesn’t sound to bad. Don’t ya think.

Has Leica actually said that there will be no more film rangefinders? Or that production of the M7 or MP will cease?

Jon