Website up and running

Jesus you have a lot of disturbing work. How is your psyche? I find it hard to comment on the ‘photography’ because all I see is content, which I suppose in itself is a comment on it’s force. I hope that you have some productive outlet to use such content to affect some kind of action or whatever, because in the case of some of the subject matter I don’t feel that seeing such images is helping me to understand anything. It just makes me sick, and I want to turn away, and I assume you don’t want that for the victims and possible other victims..I don’t mean to be critical per se, I just hope that if you are subjecting yourself and others to see this crap side of life that the photos can be used to serve a purpose.

intense pictures of “maras”- is it just called MS 13 in my neighborhood? man, you sure got out of the house. good job.

What bothered me is the obvious manipulation in some of the images in the form of the fake skies, etc, which leads me to question exactly how much post-processing has gone into the much of the imagery. Some of the photographs are stunning in a disturbing way, but I sort of agree with Erica on this…...the work is kind of pornographic, and none of the stories have enough depth to be anything other than superficial.

Victor, more text and backround story would help me to place these better…

At my job I tend to reach for a bag valve mask over a camera when I encounter a dead person in the street- however, I wonder if Im missing something when looking at Victor’s website. I saw the gang guys, the personal family work, the Katrina pics. I take it for granted that this photographer is getting out there and whatever Im missing in context or action, I figure he’s working on his process. There’s a lot of forensic and emergency porn out there… especially in the galleries. Im curious to see his other images from the Maras gang, the good times, perhaps.

Design wise, it would be cool if after scrolling to the very right side of all the pics, you had another ‘Victor J Blue’ link in the top right corner, so you could just click on that and be taken back to the main page, without having to scroll all the way back left again.

More text and background info would be good

I just perused your work. I must say, while Im quite impressed by your ability and eye, I find the presentation very disturbing. Notice I said presentation, not quality or subject matter. You clearly have the cajones to get yourself out there, into some sketchy shit and locales, which I applaud- access sometimes is everything- and you get yourself back again. You are in great places with great stories and people all around- both light and dark, good and evil, if you will. I guess what I have to agree on with Andy and Erica and Gilby is not ability, as you are clearly a quite competent photog, but I see little to no story, narrative, or even documentary thread. I see how fucked up some places and situations are, and having just spent a month in Guatemala myself I must say your Guatemala is a different vision from mine, which I totally admire and I enjoy the other sides of the coin. But I just can’t feel compassion and I struggle to care about those in the photos, as I dont know enough. The exhumation- gee I d love to hear the whole story, the journalism part, that the pics so clearly and powerfully illustrate. The maras- Id like to hear about why they join, what they get out of it, causes & effects, etc.The border idea is greta, but doesnt feel focused enough. I want their stories and the overall situation to understand. I want to understand those in the pics a bit more. Its almost as if there are too may – not shocking- but overtly dark images, telling one side of the story too well. I am not too squeamish about corpses, but I dont feel I gained anything from seeing the tortured bodies- I need context. If they were just single shots for a portfolio, Id understand a bit more in that regard. A bit too gore porn for me. Your captions, while not poorly written, arent detailed enough and dont help explain and make the photos more powerful, from more meaning. I want to understand, but I don’t want to be thrust into a dark, gross world with little meaning. Ive been around a few blocks, and seeing gross for its own sake has no appeal. As an example, looking at “Inferno” by Nachtwey isn’t fun or easy, but Im left with some more understanding afterwards. This being siaid, I have to say keep up the skills you have, great work on capturing faces, situations, light, and mood, and…shoot some flowers ? Puppies ? Id like to see more of your work as you keep working, and the light side of these dark situations. thanks for sharing …

erica,andy and eric,
could you please explain why you all find these pictures ‘pornographic’? i see nothing here that is trivial,sensationalist,voyeuristic or tittilating.they seem like honest,unflinching images to me.i also disagree with the percieved lack of narrative skills in victors work.not all stories move comfortably from a to b,with a beginning ,middle and an end.balance is not always achieved by contrast.some stories and situations are hopeless,illogical,fractured and messy.some don’t fit into boxes.i think the structure of victors narrative succeeds very well on occassion.

I think Eric has explained it pretty well.

intimacy, you need intimacy. it is surfacing in the family series but many of the previous comments are on the money. who are these people? and why should i want to look at photo after photo of them? character development and intimacy, you have the composition side down, now comes the hard part. good luck.

Thats a nice way to put it Michael, and if pornography lacks something its “intimacy.”


I don’t mean to be to critical, as I said some of the images are stunning, and the alienation in the photos is something you don’t want to lose entirely; you definitely have a unique feel and I would try and hold onto that, but by balancing it out with a little more humanism, I think you be a better photographer, and maybe a happier person (am I reading too much into the shots?)

First, thank you for your comments.

i do not know quite where to start. it hurts me that my work in guatemala would be perceived as pornographic. i wish that a photography website left more room for context. i would hope that anyone confused by the work or questioning of my motives would read this:

Gangs Without Borders

it is a story i wrote for the San Francisco Chronicle about the maras in guatemala. there is a podcast as well, that goes along with it. hopefully in between the two, you can understand better where i am coming from and what i am reporting on.

as for the skies- there is not a fake sky on the site, please be specific in your criticism of which images look overly manipulated to you.

as for my guatemala, the narrative thread is that i am reporting on a country still shattered 10 years after a supposed “peace”. the exhumation story on the site is a small part of my work with the forensic anthropologists there, in 2005 i spent an entire month with them. i could not find a single publication willing to publish my story, although again, it was published in the SF Chron
but is not longer on the website- i am more than willing to send along the text to whoever is interested. i went with short, referential captions rather than full ones, the original captions are as complete as possible, if i need to include them, that is an excellent criticism i will take a look at.

as for me, my psyche is in tact. it suffers most not from seeing bad things, but from knowing and caring about people in bad situations that i photograph. i strive for intimacy with my subjects, unfortunately some of the tougher situations depicted left little room for intimacy. i think if you look at it again, you might find a little more humanism and intimacy in the pictures that stand out less because of the extreme nature of some of the others. it is hard. i feel like i need to show this stuff, because people do not know what is going on in guatemala, as evidenced by Eric’s comment. it is entirely possible to go there for a month and not know that death squads are killing kids. i hope this clears some things up. thank you.
sincerely,
victor j blue

Whatever you think of Victor’s work, I can attest to Vic’s psyche being very intact. I’ve worked with him a few times and can honestly say that he cares much more about his subjects than the typical photographer – who generally views them as just one more element to line up in the frame.

For example, the third frame of his “borders” story depicts Leopold at work. While I was busy just trying to get something to eat, Vic ignored his food and listened to Leopold tell his story of growing up in the US, going to a US high school, and then being deported back to Mexico. Vic has dedicated months and months to his Guatemala work, and brings a depth of real knowledge about the country and its people to his work. Much more than someone on a single month’s tourist jaunt.

So, please, let’s try to keep the comments to Vic’s work and website, not his psyche.

Vic is still growing as a photographer, and I have no doubt that his work will increasingly reflect the sincere empathy he shows his subjects.

On another note, Erica, you should feel sick looking at some these images. They depict sick and disturbing things. Are you suggesting that they should be depicted beautifully? Or not seen at all?

Max, no, not in the least am I saying they should be depicted beautifully or not at all. I am saying that they are not only extremely forceful in showing the true horror of the situation, but that they also left me with a desire to turn away from the situation instead of moving more deeply into it. And my sense is that when photojournalism tells such stories, it is more effective when we want to understand and act.

Victor, it is good to hear from you, to hear you are well. I never questioned your motives, just if the subject matter was affecting you in a detrimental way. I do feel that there will be greater effect for your work if you embrace a way to tell the story more fully, through extra words regardless of space or through other images. By no means do I want to judge or attack you, and it isn’t really like me to speak so directly about a person’s work if my response isn’t entirely positive, but there is an aspect to your way of seeing that makes me want to be forceful toward you, as well as the work. Maybe it is a case of blaming the messenger, I am not sure, but I do hope you aren’t personally affected by my overall reaction.

Perhaps it was inappropriate to express my concern for your psyche, but I have begun to feel we are all family here, and I was being truthful, not trying to start chatter. In that light, I am going to remove one of my posts.

I actually did and do know that death squads were and are killing kids in Guatemala; its just not what I was in Guatemala to do (I was there for both pleasure and work) and so I didnt see it. I heard about it, read about it, and spoke to some affected by it. Its great to see more than one side of a place, thats why i like Victor’s take on things- i think both sides are equally valid. My Guatemala experience, while full of its own trials and wonderful times, is just as valid as Vic’s- and that one aspect so great about PJ- everyone has a story, all of them valid. If all we saw were negative things about a place, how accurate a portrayl is that ? How one sided is that image making and storytelling ? Showing many facets is what its all about.
Great piece in the SF Cron, by the way- perhaps an amended version to go with the pics would be all thats needed to improve intimacy and clarify understandings for the viewer. I’d actually like to see more of yourngang work.

Erica, thanks for your reply. i like the idea of a big family as well. i think it is important to talk about psyche’s and stress and the things photographers deal with, but i do not like to harp on it because there are hundreds out there working who have seen it worse than me. i was only bothered that folks thought i had a sick motive to show gross pictures which is not the case at all.

Eric, i am glad you had a good trip to guatemala, you are right, everyone has a story to tell, and they are equally valid. many of my favorite daily life pictures did not make it into what i hoped would be a tight web edit of a project i have been working on for 4 years. there is more to guatemala than death and killings, but this is serious business and i feel compelled to report on it. here is the anthropologist story i mentioned before:
Trying to Unbury Guatemala’s Gruesome Past

and one on el salvador:
Art in El Salvador

and the link to a podcast about the gangs:
podcast

i hope some of this stuff rounds out your view of my work. i am not “that guy”. intimacy and good storytelling are my goals. not shock and awe. i will take a good look at the website to make sure that is communicated better.
thanks,
vic

Border image #2: If its dark enough that car headlights are turned on (in old cars), yet the sky is still bright (tonal values and contrast between the clouds and the sky) and foreground figures, concrete median, etc are still visible with tonal values a stop and a half or two underexposed from a middle grey, alot of manipulation has gone on to make that happen in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with that in itself, except it is in the context of photojournalistic work where accuracy is more important than effect.

Victor,
man youve got some critics out there! I hope it ends up being constructive. Personally I thought many of your images were very striking and well done. You certainly have a command of the camera, and light and composition. What the others have said about your story telling ability is REALLY important. I feel as though (and people may argue this) that once a person has been killed the story really shifts to the people who are affected by his or her death. So, instead of focusing your attention on the dead body, or the carnage, you might try shifting your focal point to the other people in the room, using the body as a backdrop or prop almost (if you can think of it in that way). Its a tough thing. Especially with regard to Katrina. I have seen so many pictures of Katrina victims floating in the water. Its like a body hunt in the end. Few photographers were able to tell the real story using the dead body in the frame.

In the US the dead body thing is still mostly taboo. I dont agree that it is entirely pornographic. I am sure that wasnt your intent, but the US just doesnt see it that way. It loses its intimacy as stated above.

As for the rest of your work, you have a great eye for light, and your topics are very hard ones to cover. So I would say, just keep on trying, make sense out of your work, write more if need be, to make the story come together, and take what Michael and Andy have said and build upon it. it seems odd to work this way, almost lik eyou are trying to create a story out of nothing, but it really does need the basic building blocks for it to work. Background, character development, rising action, climax, etc… not just pictures of people doing crazy things.

Ciao fer now.
m

Very good job,interesting pictures “maras” and “guatemala” Enhorabuena

Well, after a week away from the forum I come back to find this interesting thread, the only one that really has something to ponder, but I am surprised by the comments of the respondents. Personally I found Victor’s work, while brutal at times, perfectly in tune with the themes and in fact I would go so far as to say that Victor is a real poet, in the Homeric sense. He doesnt flinch. He tells the truth as he sees it and doesnt look away, and personally I feel that is the best thing here: there is lots of honest shooting, real feeling, he is very close, very close indeed. (There was a thread on here while back where I quoted some lines from the Iliad, if you dont understand my allusion to the bard, you will after reading those passages). Also I object to the silly talk about light and composition: dont you get it? The formal aspects of the pix come straight out of the content; they are one and the same. That is art at its best. Talk about formal qualities in this case is entirely irrelevant. Erica, it is not that Victor gives us all “content”; on the contrary, he gives us the total package, but you cannot distinguish one from the other, and that is why you are grappling with the material. Also I think that talking about narrative or the lack thereof is somewhat precipitate: clearly there is lots of info to cover, explication is needed, but that is something that only the text can give us, and I wouldnt mind seeing more text on the site in general, short essays or statements—I have a feeling that Victor could write as well as he shoots. I felt that the Guatemala story did a masterful job of covering the territory, and the themes seemed strong and well developed to me. More connections could be made, yes, but again, that is more of a textual matter.

I have to add that i dont agree at all about the pornographic charge. On the contrary, I felt the images were well contextualized. The photo of the naked youngsters bound and gagged is heart wrenching, but I didnt feel at all as though it were “pornographic”. It was very honest, very direct, very terse. that is not pornography; it is poetry. You may not like it, but then poetry is not always pretty.

Great job,

Amazing eyes shouts silently from many of your photos – very powerful.

It does look like you have been to hell and came back to tell about it.
Hope you have ways to” release” the sediment these images must have left in your soul (don’t think you can ignore it) – meditation, a shrink – who knows what it is that is needed – hopefully you have a way to deal with it (not just by ignoring it)

The web site is VERY fast and that is something that if you can explain how you do would benefit many others.

Poetry, yes, photojournalism no. The only thing I know about the Maras gang from those pictures is they wear tatoos, are brutal, and are often seen behind fences. Is that enough? For a poet, yes, from a photojournalist, absolutely not. I dislike the bloggers that are critical of certain aspects of photojournalism but I am willing to admit, and this is a perfect example, that at times getting a great (read poetic) shot is not the same as getting at the truth. The fact is that we all know that “photojournalism” has been moving closer and closer to the gallery wall for a long time, and the criticisms that are being directed at us are probably echoing some of this. Again, its just a matter of context. But from a “photojournalist” I expect journalism and this isn’t that. Just to point you in the right direction, what Joe Rodriguez did with the LA gangs was the exact opposite and certainly was photojournalism, not a one-dimensional or sensational, but circumspect and the work of someone who took a long time to live with and get to know his subjects. That takes work but its what is called for. Sorry Jon, its superficial and if someone came to the DR and ended up with a set of images like Victor’s, I suspect your tune would be somewhat different.

Just to extend this, I notice that “Thin” by Lauren Greenfeld, is a film on HBO, and is opening at Fahey-Klein, a prestigious art gallery. Now what this means I am not certain, but although I am certain that some photojournalism is art, is it meant to be first seen in a gallery, on a wall? If the point is that women have become neurotic and obssessive about being thin, what does this say when the images from a documentary on this are immediately shown in a gallery that also sells work by Herb Ritts, Annie Leibovitz, etc?

Of course I don’t have the answers but I do think the questions are valid and that these issues are going to be put to us by critics (bloggers, whatever) and its something to think about.

Certainly I will consider it in regards to my own work….some of which is photojournalism and some definitely not.

Lightstalkers rocks. Victor, you are getting a real professional critique of your work here.

Jon, I am confused about the part having to do with composition and light. I think these things are integral to a photojournalist. Without them what do more do you have than a camera on the wall? I mean, where is the artistic side of things? he tells the truth, sure, but why set comp and light aside for content. If we are talking about art, it should be the climax of these things. Form, moment in history, light, etc. It should all come together into one frame. No?

andy (et al) I think one of the big issues is how to comp[ress an entire sotry into one frame. TO be a real photojournalist, how do you tell an entire story in one frame. Especially for a portfolio. Maybe you can enlighten us here, Andy. I have struggled with this forever!

m

i hope that if you were to look past the brutal pictures in the maras gallery you might see that they:
-are the victims of state repression(#2)
-have families that mourn their deaths in one room hovels(#13)
-are hunted in their neighborhoods by masked cops that look more like soldiers(#8)
-look to faith to help them out of their hell(#4)
-have fathers and wives that suffer their deaths painfully(#5,6)
-are a source of fear and intimidation in neighborhoods they dominate (#3)
-are human beings under their tattoos that reach out to help another when they are injured(#1)

if all you got from that gallery is that they wear tattoos and live behind fences, i invite you to look a little deeper.

i agree, once someone is killed, the attention does shift to those they left behind. that is why in a gallery of 15 images there are 5 that deal just with family members of the dead. it is a good point, and an aspect of my stories i put first. i think questions of light and composition are always difficult when dealing with heavy content, but i dont think they are off limits. thanks for the defense against the pornographic charge as well.

if this is superficial work, i dont know what more i could do. i am not the only one to report on the maras, and certainly not the best. i am open to and learning from the criticism, and i do not want to argue. but attacking the work as superficial is unfair. i also find it unproffesional. the photos stand to be critiqued, the work stands on it’s own, but after your last post about galleries and photojournalism as art, i am sure you have not read the story i wrote about the maras. those issues have nothing to do with my work. if you read it, look at the selection of pictures, and still feel it is “poetry” and not journalism, if you cannot see their truth as well as a truth a little more universal in them, again, i dont know what more i could do.

jon, i always felt that the content could come from the form but not the other way around. form is just that, content is what we read into it right?
victor, the guatemala story is by far the most impressive and obviously the one you spent the most time with. why then is it last in line on your list of stories?
i agree with andy that i would like to know the people in your pictures as people, which you do touch on at points, and not just icons. icons are only interesting on the surface, people’s lives have a thousand stories to tell.

Rian/Victor,
I totally agree with you on your point having to do with icons. But the strange thing is, we tend to iconify people. It is just that simple. We tend to be biggots, we tend to stereotype, and we eventually become racists, because we never undertsand the full story, and we tend to not care so much, unless something moves us. Man, that was a runon sentace.

The one thing I took from Henri Cartier-Bresson, a guy who hated the idea of photo-journalism and only did it because it was the only way he could create his art, was that there is a point in time, or maybe better, a point in life, that both form and subject matter come together. This apex of artistic construction and truthfullness is what makes photojournalism a real thing. I mean otherwise we just have the voyerism aspect-otherwsie we just have the pretty picture aspect. Unles we combine these things we loose out on the real meaning-the story which we are trying to convey.

If I were to go hang out with the Maras, and keep myself from getting killed, or beat up, or whatever, would I really end up with some body of work that spoke the real truth about who these guys are and what they stand for? Probably not.

It is so important for us, as photojournalists, to be journalists first, and take pictures second.

I think Victor is on to somehting here. I think his pictures are the beginnings of a a great story ( a few great stories). Maybe he just needs a re-edit, or perhaps, some more follow through. I commend him for defending his pictures. I know this can be a hard thing to do. But I hope he digs deeper and is able to produce the real story we are all needing to hear. The one that shocks us, the one that moves us, and most importantly, the one that changes how we feel about a certain topic. Otherwise its all for nothing.

-ok, after 4 pints of Kabuli, (the local brew) I am ranting. Hope it was leggible.

-m

also-

i have posted the original files from the border picture, thought to be manipulated, on my gallery. there are two versions, the out of the camera original, and a gray scale version, with no toning to either whatsoever. when i converted them to black and white i upped the contrast and brought up the woman’s face. i feel a little exposed showing these like this, but i am willing to put myself out there to engage in the debate. i feel confident that your average viewer would not call these overly manipulated, and unless you still see “obvious manipulation in some of the images in the form of the fake skies, etc, which leads me to question exactly how much post-processing has gone into the much of the imagery” that is too much for “the context of photojournalistic work where accuracy is more important than effect” then please amend your comment. my final image is i believe both accurate and effective.

gallery

Victor, first of all thanks for posting the shots, but I’d say the pictures pretty much make my case. I know of at least one newspaper photographer who has been fired for much less, and most papers prohibit anything like this. I am not saying that your intention was to decieve, its just that digital gives you too many tools and its not always a good thing. Sometimes the results can look fake, and photojournalism thats the last thing you want, at least in my opinion.

yeah, i dunno. it look slike a pretty staright forward bw conversion, maybe a little burning, but really… not much else.. there is no reason why we cant dodge and burn, adjust contrast, etc.. otherwise we are just button pushers, and these guys making the digital sensors have it all figured out and make all the rules..

it doesnt look fake to me, and even so, if it looked fake, that would be one thing, but if it looked real and was fake, that would be somehting else. ugh, i dont see the issue with this image. help?

Andy,
I respectfully disagree with you. I’ve worked at a few papers, and did similar toning to images with my boss looking over my shoulder. The ethical guidelines of most papers is to constrain yourself to techniques you could have done in the darkroom. The aim of the toning is make the scene look close to what your naked eye sees. Having been at the scene with Vic when he took the image, I do not feel that he misrepresented it. My naked eye saw that woman’s eyes, and the clouded sky. In fact, a fair amount of b&w work I’ve seen from the 1950s-80s, while done in the darkroom, has much more heinous toning – with obvious “hand of god” dodging applied to everyone’s faces.

The case I assume you’re referencing is very different. The photographer burned the image until content was obscured. It’s a very different case. Vic is trying to show the viewer what the scene truly looked like, the other photog was trying to eliminate content until the image fit his preconceived notion. I feel like you’re advocating that photojournalists should do no toning to their images. Are you?

I’m also confused by your use of the word circumspect in an earlier post. Dictionary.com has the definition being: 1. watchful and discreet; cautious; prudent 2.well-considered

While I think these are definitely good traits for a photojournalist, I’m a bit confused by your usage in this case (comparing Vic’s work to Rodriguez’s). Do you mind elaborating?

You can certainly judge Vic’s work however you want. But know that in regards to his Guatemala story, he has lived there and really gotten to know the country. I’d even venture to say more so than anyone else on LS who doesn’t live there.

Maybe its me then. Its not something that would happen with tri-x, I can tell you that for certain.

Man thats too bad, Andy. SInce when did Kodak dicatate the art of our profession?

Ok, just so I am clear: when I use words like poetry, I mean both poetry in a literal sense - my analogy with Homer was a serious one - and in the original sense of the Greek root: poesis, a process (emphasis on process) whereby we create an ordered entity whose elements resonate with meaning. For me, victor’s images do just that. Form and function, or if you prefer, form and content, are really one and the same, they are not distinct, but we make the distinction for heuristic purposes. I personally prefer Aristotle’s formula: “soul (content) is to the body (form) what cutting is to the ax.” I wouldnt say that content can be defined merely as “what we read into (a certain form)”; partly because there are other things that determine how we “read” or interpret an esthetic object or a story or even just a news report on channel 5; and partly because I think that while we may seek to make the strongest images possible, we (as photojournalists anyway) are somewhat hidebound to the letter, we need to “inform,” we are storytellers, and as such we cannot be satisfied with imagery that merely creates a neat special effect or plays with the formal elements of a two dimensional visual representation ( the kind of thing that is now becoming extremely popular among PJ shooters ever since Paolo Pelegrin showed the world his Kosovo material, to mention one example, but there are others); that is, if such images are captured they need to be contextualized in the narrative. For this reason I wrote that discussing the form is irrelevant, because victor’s form and content are wedded perfectly; there is no mannerism in the shooting, no search for “visual effects” per se, just an unflinching gaze at reality. I am sure that when victor shot these images he wasnt just thinking, “gee that light is just right,” but rather, “shit this poor battered human being” (with, perhaps the inevitable subordinate thought, for after all we are photographers, “and the blank light on the body really does make get across the bleakness of a wasted life”). That is, the body presents itself in whatever light you find it, you take the picture because you need to document the fact of that body and all it represents, but you also of course consider subsidiary matters such as the light. In the instant you fire the shutter, your mind is probably alight with a dozen different thoughts: is the exposure right, how is the light striking the subject, jesus that body is severely battered, whoa I hope the gang doesnt get mad at me for intruding!, should I show the whole horror of what I am seeing here or be more discrete?, etc etc,—so we find ourselves thinking on a number of levels (esthetic, thematic, technical, and of course about extrinsic matters such as our personal safety). The point is that taking the photo involves an overriding purpose, otherwise we wouldnt be there in the first place, and that overriding purpose surely is not a purely formal matter. If anything, theme is the most important element.

Now in the famous thread about Photojournalism and Art, I made it quite clear that I believed photojournalism to be one of the arts, and that as storytellers we inevitably construct an artistic object subject to the norms of aesthetic theory since Plato and Aristotle first grappled with these questions. To me that is inarguably the case. However, when we talk about the institution of ART as it is embodied under a capitalist market system, then yes we enter into a somewhat murkier situation, and we can justifiably ask about the lines that separate photojournalism from art, reportage from gallery exhibitions, magazine coverage from wall decorations. I happen to believe that it is OK to invade the museum, the gallery, even the living room, with imagery of this sort. I dont like the bourgeois idea of art as decoration, of beauty as something pleasant. It is an esthetic that turns Mozart into elevator music. Aristotle made it quite clear that art serves a higher purpose, that it is cathartic, that it is intended to plumb the depths of human depravity and ignorance and malfeasance. But there are other aspects of this problem, as Andy points out above, and these pose legitimate questions about the direction that photojournalism is taking and where its audience lies, because if it becomes a creature solely of the Art World, then I think we are in for a real ethical dilemma. However, when I talked about victor’s work as poetry, it was not my intention at all to imply that this was artsy work or somehow disqualified as photojournalism. On the contrary, I think it is quite clearly good photojournalism, and while the salvadoran story might gain more explanatory power from developing the narrative further, I think he has got some great work there and I dont think it is “pornographic” in any way. It doesnt strike me as lurid or titillating; it seems to me just brutally honest.

Also in discussing victor’s work, I had the Guatemala story more in mind, simply because its breadth is very much in line with what I am trying to do here in DR (I just havent gotten round to showing the more brutal imagery that will eventually make up one part of the overall documentation). To me those wonderful images show me a shooter who is very much in tune with the place.

Victor, I hope you are still riding this wave of discussion undisturbed – your work is a strong catalyst for some perceptions that apply beyond the specifics of your work. So thanks for being the one exposed for this benefit.

Jon, about the whole marriage of form/function; though I see it as an ideal in functional objects and design, in art/media, I think obvious personal viewpoint makes the delivery of imagery more conceptually/emotionally digestible somehow. Otherwise it’s seems to be a straight document and if I don’t have sufficient text, for me it seems lacking without this personal perspective and I may not be able to consume it and use it. Not to say Victor didn’t have one in taking these pics, but when the marriage is less complete, I feel I actually gain more from the image. But that almost seems backwards to the role of a news/info based photographer. And I am obviously slanted toward the art perspective in choosing what I am willing to digest most fully.

Andy:
You accuse Victor of over-manipulating an image. You implied he was unethical. An eye witness who was there when he took the photo said it looked just like what he saw with his eyes. Victor posts his raw images that show the sky in both color and black and white.
The toning he did was minimal. He added contrast, lightened the foreground and slightly darkened and added contrast to the sky. All of which could have been done with entry level skill in the darkroom WITH TRI-X.
I’ve worked in newspapers for over 15-years. This would be common acceptable toning anywhere I’ve ever experienced. Moreover, I ‘ve been in the biz long enough to have shot a goodly amount of Tri-X myself. I could have easily taken that scene much farther in the darkroom with potassium ferricyanide.
Besides, I can see you’re no stranger to the photoshop dodge tool from the glowing eyeballs and teeth in your New York gallery.
(Image #2 in the Destination New York gallery on http://www.andylevin.com/)

Victor published truthful photographs.

It’s getting too late to explore the reasons you see Victor’s work as superficial and pornographic when the images in your Katrina gallery explore some of the same themes. I won’t be so unfair to you to call your work superficial or disaster porn. I don’t think it is. And, I don’t think Victor’s is either. If I were being unfair and oversimplifying your work the way you did to Victor I could say something like you said to Victor, “The only thing I know about the Katrina victims from those pictures is they cry a lot, are dead in the water , and are often seen living in shelters.”

You’ve been in the business a long time. You’ve made some important images. Victor is just starting out and asked for helpful feedback. I think you can do a better job for him.

Thomas Boyd
Eugene, Ore.

artists and journalists can and should exist in the same space.after all,they are dealing with the same subject matter,how to make sense of the world they live in.whether the photographs are too pretty,too well composed etc is an irrelevance,a mere aesthetic.one of the ironies of this debate is while pj’s are being attacked for moving away from the bog-standard pics they usually take,artists are being attacked for making work that is too real.i suppose what i am trying to say is that it is us who should develop and progress our craft.not bloggers,editors,the public or schools.we should stop restricting ourselves to percieved ideas,but recognise the changes that have occured over the last few years and make them coherent once again.retreating into the cosy world of rules of behaviour,old definitions,thatjust preserves a stasis which should be an anathema to us.the world is in big flux,as is the media and the publics perception of it.lets embrace those changes,shrug off the attacks of the unqualified,and take control of these changes.the art world is our ally in this process,not our enemy.surely the whole point is to get the work out there.whether its a newspaper or gallery walll does not matter,an audience is an audience.i am not saying we should throw the baby out with the bath water but evolution is both neccassary and inevitable.keep studying our history as humans,its literature,art,poetry and of course,photography,but these things are there to give us the tools to deal with our own times,they are not strict blueprints{especially in aesthetic matters},but rather the wise,whispered advice and wisdom of our forebears.

Thomas you are absolutely right—the shot looked fake to me, its not fake, and I apologize to Victor for questioning his work. I now realize that my statement could have been more tactfully phrased.

Fair enough. I’m sure Victor appreciates your retraction.

With that settled, I would like to direct this thread back to addressing Victor’s website. That’s what he asked for. I think comments would be most helpful to Victor if they addressed the choices he’s made with the images he has now.

I assume he’s put the site up for the primary purpose of marketing and showcasing his skills to an editor.

I thought maybe he should eliminate the gallery called “portfolio” for now because he’s pulled singles from his stories and thrown random images like portraits and performance into the mix. I feel the images from the stories should only show up in the story galleries. He has such strong story galleries, it’s as if the “portfolio” gallery is diminishing those somehow.

Then after he’s built up enough good singles, start a new gallery called something like “Singles” or “Daily Work” or something more creative. I’ve seen galleries like that split into “black and white” and “color” for instance.

I’m no expert on this matter, I don’t even have a website for that purpose. But this site has members that are (experts).

I would hate for Victor to walk away from this thread feeling attacked and not helped. I think it could have a chilling effect with other photographers seeking advice.

Any thoughts (on his website)?

I agree with that Thomas, there is too much duplication, especially in the tatooed gangsters who are in the portfolio, the gang story, and also Guatamala.

What I would suggest is that all of Victor’s work would fit very neatly into the one essay called “Borders,” borders of a geographical kind, borders of human relationships, borders as the limits and extent of human behavior (the violence and the tatoos,) the borders between races that Katrina so powerfully revealed, and more importantly the psychological borders between people that result in alienation and depression.

And by backing away from the journalism and moving a bit further toward the poetic these pictures are much more powerful, and less explanation in the form of text it needed aa there is less of an obligation to explain the story.

This kind of personal documentary work is closer to Slyvia Plachy than James Nachtwey, and thats how I see Victor Blue’s work. I think the man has some talent otherwise I wouldn’t bother commenting on it at all.

I’d like to hear from you why in your Mara gang story you felt the need to put 3 images of a dead body, one of which is a close up. thanks

... but i loved your guatemala story

A tighter edit, better navigation, some more text. I wouldnt fuss with it too much, though. I think the site is just great. For me, like Dana, the Guatemala story was the apex.

thank you andy.

your suggestion about a larger more thematic presentation is a good one. i have trouble seeing my work outside of more obvious thematic groupings. i still consider it pure journalism, so for me the pictures are still wedded to the people, places, situations, and issues they depict, but i will take it under advisement and try and look for other threads between the pictures.

thomas, your suggestions are excellent as well, and i still have much to learn about presentation and sequencing. thanks for the critique. and yes, i could improve the navigation some, thanks john.

dana, as for the inclusion of the three bodies in the mara story…

they are graphic, i admit that. but for me, one body is not just a body. it is a person, and a photograph that shows the consequences of a violent death forces us to ask why did this happen, who did this to them? two of the pictures are from a gang massacre in a guatemalan prison. in number 9, i felt that the grasping hand of the emergency worker and the way the hand of the dead man seems to be holding his own ignobly attached id tag said something about his passing-the maras have taken up a place in our psyche as tattooed, evil incarnate, and he seemed to be holding a sign, calling our attention to the end of his plight, asking us to see things from his point of view. the way the emt held his forearm showed some kind of tenderness for me, in the middle of a chaotic and tragic situation. in the next picture, a young woman pauses to hold the hand of a friend while she looked for her brother’s corpse. to me this woman’s grief and the connection she still held with the dead man that trumped the taboo or aversion many of us would have to touching a corpse like that, or hell even being in that room, was to me a powerful testament to the humanity of these folks- they had friends and relatives who loved and now miss them, no matter what they had done in their lives or how evil the rest of society sees them.

the third photo, number 7: this is difficult. it is vey tough for me to look at as well. over the 3 and a half months i spent in guatemala in the summer of 05, there was a wave of extreme violence, a social cleansing, sweeping over the country. every day or so, tortured corpses would appear on the roads around the edges of the capital. one day very early, my close friend rodrigo abd kicked me out of bed and told me to hurry, they had found two bodies on the outskirts of town. we arrived and when the cops removed the tarp they had over them, i had to catch my breath. i leaned to rodrigo and whispered, “i cannot find a publishable image of this.” i made the pictures as best i could, the whole time my mind burning with the feeling that some of the fat police investigators gleefully showing them off to us could have been involved in their murder. one of the boys had the smallest marking on his shoulder, an initial maybe, inked out with the crudest needle. it was enough for the police to proclaim them both gangsters, and their horrific deaths therefore completely justified. this was not a rare occurence. nor from talking with other photographers, the most graphic one. it is terrible to look at, no doubt. but the visceral response to the picture, my own and others, has been the one thing that forces people to pay attention to the issue. they always ask- “my god, what happened to him.” it is strange to talk about, but i think it is more than just shock. i feel that the evidence of the extreme suffering forces a viewer to relate to the victim, to almost feel the pain he endured. if i did not take the photo, and if you were not looking at it, then that kid and hundreds more like him would have died an anonymous death (he will never be identified by loved ones, he has been “disappeared”), and the message his torturers meant to send would have stayed with the terrorized residents of their neighborhoods, rather than with people around the world who can empathize and hopefully use their disgust to prevent more killings, whom they did not intend to find out about their handiwork. the killings represent not just an aspect of the state response to the phenomena of the maras, but also a slipping of the country further into darkness, as death squads from the dark days of the civil war are reconstituted to deal with this social crisis the only way the powers that be in guatemala know how- brutality.

i hope this long winded explanation helps you understand what part each picture plays in the story. i wish the pictures spoke more for themselves, but i hope i am having to talk so much about them because this is a photography forum and your average reader would be able, between the captions and pictures, to understand the story. again, thanks for your interest.